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Old 11 Apr 2012, 10:16 PM EDT   #31
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Originally Posted by croatianboii View Post
Pell says Adam and Eve didn't exist
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-...e-didnt-exist/
Is there a reason why he said that?
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Old 12 Apr 2012, 11:24 AM EDT   #32
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Just a few problems with the notion of an "acting God." If God is outside time and is above man through perfection, then why does God have property rights? What is you just asserted is that "it's his right," yet "rights" are only reserved for acting human beings. God does not act in the same sense as us; the most obvious difference as the Thomists argue is that he again transcends time and is not subject to dispersed knowledge (he knows everything) or scarcity (he is not bound by choice). Another crucial difference is that a "perfect" god simply has no reason to act in the human sense; he is perfectly content with his situation and has no reason to act. Therefore, property rights can not apply to him. And if property rights can not apply to him, then he has no right to speak of.
tbh, i have no ****ing idea what you're talking about here. If God is real and if its true that he created everything, then he has the right and ability to choose to do as he wills with anything and everything since nothing would be possible without his power. God doesnt abide by any rules, he does as he wants at all times.

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Of course, what about his perfection? How do we know that his perfection is at all similar to our own conception of perfection? Assuming he is perfect in our sense, then why does he need some lesser beings to worship him? If he does need our worship, then why would he give us free will that supposedly creates the misery and suffering that is so prevalent on this earth?
Perfection is without flaw in any way shape of form and he is that. Because he is perfect, he doesnt need our worship. It is our duty to worship him because we owe it all to him. Since he doesnt need our worship, although all worship should be his, he allows us to choose to worship him or not out of his graciousness, love and mercy. You cant sustain your own life if he doesnt allow it for that reason and any other reason imaginable, we should be thankful and submissive to his will.

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Is God then responsible for the misery and suffering? And if he is responsible, then how is he omnibenevolent (perfectly righteous?) This is all assuming God even cares about our species. This can lead one to ask, "why is it that he does not demand worship from all his creations, including plants, animals, etc. if he "thrives" on it?"
He gave us free will and we choose what comes our way. When God created the earth, it was free from sin until we chose to disobey and bring sin to our own lives. Human suffering comes of the choices we have made since the start of humanity. God cares about us since he is giving us the opportunity to choose him above all else and be at his side when we die. God doesnt thrive in anything we can ever do. He acknowledges it but that doesnt mean he needs anything. he loves us all unconditionally and we owe him the same in return and much more. He doesnt send you to hell, you send yourself to hell by not choosing him, and because anything separated from his presence is hell.

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The God as dictator mentality does not hold true with the doctrines that God preaches. He preaches forgiveness not unnecessary punishment by determining the actions of an actor and then punishes him for those actions (predestination). He preaches love not hate. He preaches freedom not slavery (being bound eternally to his will without choice). I can conclude you and I have very different conceptions of Heaven, and my only hope is that I do not end up a mere pawn for a player to move me to each square at his whim.
hen i say dictator, I dont mean "Saddam torturing people for disobeying" I mean, God choosing as he pleases because it is his right and nobody knows more than him. He offers forgiveness from the sins we have committed and if we dont repent from those sins and ask for that forgiveness which he offers for nothing in retrun, then we have to pay the price ourselves. What is the price of sin? Death. This is why, if you are a Christian, Jesus was crucified, so you and I wouldnt have to die or suffer from our sins. But once you choose to deny God, then you are on your own.

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If submission is his wish, then free will is a waste of time. Of course, an omniscient God would know such a thing.
Not its not. Think about it before you post. Submission is what he deserves from us, not what he demands. He lets us choose to be submissive to him. You can deny him and choose your own path in this world or you can accept him and live according to his will, which is the best you can do. Living for him is far greater than living for your family or even yourself. Stop thinking you are giving him something as an honor, you are giving him what he deserves and what he gave you from day one. Living for him is would be the best thing you can do for yourself since he is God.
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Old 12 Apr 2012, 12:13 PM EDT   #33
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Originally Posted by DeViuS View Post
I just typed a shit load to respond, and then accidentally just x'd out of the tab. I am in a rage like no other right now. I'm going to try and type it all again, but It will probably be shorter.
This just happened to me.

I give up.
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Old 12 Apr 2012, 2:32 PM EDT   #34
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tbh, i have no ****ing idea what you're talking about here. If God is real and if its true that he created everything, then he has the right and ability to choose to do as he wills with anything and everything since nothing would be possible without his power.
I know you are lost here, because you just asserted the same thing I just poked holes through.

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God doesnt abide by any rules, he does as he wants at all times.
Then you're at odds with Genesis.

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Originally Posted by Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him.
If modern theologians are correct in the common interpretation of this verse, then this must mean that people have similar capacity to reason as does God. Ignoring the fact that I don't believe in a God as an acting being, but let's just assume this is true for the sake of argument. Using that assumption leads us to think that God must be bound by logic (rules) as we arem considering we have at least similar ways of reasoning. Of course, you can think of this in a trivial way to find the absurdity of a boundless God. If he decided to implode the universe(s), under the assumption his omnibenevolence is as defined by us humans, then would this decision not contradict that assumption? He committed an undeniably evil act, yet such a God is supposedly incapable of committing that atrocity.

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Perfection is without flaw in any way shape of form and he is that. Because he is perfect, he doesnt need our worship. It is our duty to worship him because we owe it all to him. Since he doesnt need our worship, although all worship should be his, he allows us to choose to worship him or not out of his graciousness, love and mercy. You cant sustain your own life if he doesnt allow it for that reason and any other reason imaginable, we should be thankful and submissive to his will.
You didn't answer the question as to why we should be led to believe that God's "perfection" is anything remotely similar to what we can define it. What happened to not being able to understand God, which surely includes his attributes? Finally, why would a God want us to worship him? Does he derive some joy from our worship? He must do so, assuming he is similar to us (Genesis 1:27). However, this means that he was not perfect in the sense of perfectly happy. I.e., he would have a noticeable flaw: desire. Again, this is even assuming he "acts."

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He gave us free will and we choose what comes our way. When God created the earth, it was free from sin until we chose to disobey and bring sin to our own lives. Human suffering comes of the choices we have made since the start of humanity.
Surely God is aware of the fallacy of "guilt by association," aka original sin. Human suffering comes from bad choices; choices themselves are not the ultimate catalyst to evil. I'm not going to revive the origin of free will debate that we disagree on, regardless if one has reasons and the other is being dogmatic.

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God cares about us since he is giving us the opportunity to choose him above all else and be at his side when we die. God doesnt thrive in anything we can ever do. He acknowledges it but that doesnt mean he needs anything. he loves us all unconditionally and we owe him the same in return and much more.
It seems I didn't clarify myself enough in my previous post. He needs our worship in the sense that to not worship him causes this being to condemn a sinner to eternal punishment. Is is not illogical to condemn a person for not making the right choice without concrete evidence? I'm still baffled by a doctrine that preaches the inherent evilness of men, but it also wants us to believe that whatever they say is truth. I.e., a God would know (omniscience) that the mind of men that he himself designed would be suspicious of such circumstantial evidence.

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He doesnt send you to hell, you send yourself to hell by not choosing him, and because anything separated from his presence is hell.
I agree with you insofar that this is the only explanation compatible with free will. However, if God is everything and everywhere, then how are we ever separated from his presence?

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hen i say dictator, I dont mean "Saddam torturing people for disobeying" I mean, God choosing as he pleases because it is his right and nobody knows more than him.
Reread my first post. Also, the caricature of God is not too far off from Saddam. His disciples called for the death of people for simply showing love to people with same bodily organs (homosexuality). Of course, that's why I refuse to believe the Bible as the word of God. God gave us reason, and reason dictates that that book is mostly a severe distortion of his true nature.

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He offers forgiveness from the sins we have committed and if we dont repent from those sins and ask for that forgiveness which he offers for nothing in retrun, then we have to pay the price ourselves. What is the price of sin? Death. This is why, if you are a Christian, Jesus was crucified, so you and I wouldnt have to die or suffer from our sins. But once you choose to deny God, then you are on your own.
I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the excerpt you quoted.

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Not its not. Think about it before you post. Submission is what he deserves from us, not what he demands. He lets us choose to be submissive to him. You can deny him and choose your own path in this world or you can accept him and live according to his will, which is the best you can do. Living for him is far greater than living for your family or even yourself. Stop thinking you are giving him something as an honor, you are giving him what he deserves and what he gave you from day one. Living for him is would be the best thing you can do for yourself since he is God.
If he merely wanted some being to worship him, then he would have not created free will just to have some of his creations curse his name while simultaneously putting the obedient creations at risk for harm. Thus, this act would too contradict his assumed perfection.
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Old 12 Apr 2012, 3:09 PM EDT   #35
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If I answer that wall of shit you just posted, you will write another wall of shit. I cant have a normal argument with you, I just cant.

You know what, dont believe in God or in an "acting god" (whatever the **** that means). just do whatever you want and good luck at the end.
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Old 12 Apr 2012, 8:34 PM EDT   #36
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You know what, dont believe in God or in an "acting god" (whatever the **** that means). just do whatever you want and good luck at the end.
We're not really arguing, considering arguing implies someone can win; this is about theology where no one wins. We are merely exchanging beliefs.
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Old 12 Apr 2012, 8:50 PM EDT   #37
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I know you are lost here, because you just asserted the same thing I just poked holes through.



Then you're at odds with Genesis.



If modern theologians are correct in the common interpretation of this verse, then this must mean that people have similar capacity to reason as does God. Ignoring the fact that I don't believe in a God as an acting being, but let's just assume this is true for the sake of argument. Using that assumption leads us to think that God must be bound by logic (rules) as we arem considering we have at least similar ways of reasoning. Of course, you can think of this in a trivial way to find the absurdity of a boundless God. If he decided to implode the universe(s), under the assumption his omnibenevolence is as defined by us humans, then would this decision not contradict that assumption? He committed an undeniably evil act, yet such a God is supposedly incapable of committing that atrocity.



You didn't answer the question as to why we should be led to believe that God's "perfection" is anything remotely similar to what we can define it. What happened to not being able to understand God, which surely includes his attributes? Finally, why would a God want us to worship him? Does he derive some joy from our worship? He must do so, assuming he is similar to us (Genesis 1:27). However, this means that he was not perfect in the sense of perfectly happy. I.e., he would have a noticeable flaw: desire. Again, this is even assuming he "acts."



Surely God is aware of the fallacy of "guilt by association," aka original sin. Human suffering comes from bad choices; choices themselves are not the ultimate catalyst to evil. I'm not going to revive the origin of free will debate that we disagree on, regardless if one has reasons and the other is being dogmatic.



It seems I didn't clarify myself enough in my previous post. He needs our worship in the sense that to not worship him causes this being to condemn a sinner to eternal punishment. Is is not illogical to condemn a person for not making the right choice without concrete evidence? I'm still baffled by a doctrine that preaches the inherent evilness of men, but it also wants us to believe that whatever they say is truth. I.e., a God would know (omniscience) that the mind of men that he himself designed would be suspicious of such circumstantial evidence.



I agree with you insofar that this is the only explanation compatible with free will. However, if God is everything and everywhere, then how are we ever separated from his presence?



Reread my first post. Also, the caricature of God is not too far off from Saddam. His disciples called for the death of people for simply showing love to people with same bodily organs (homosexuality). Of course, that's why I refuse to believe the Bible as the word of God. God gave us reason, and reason dictates that that book is mostly a severe distortion of his true nature.



I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the excerpt you quoted.



If he merely wanted some being to worship him, then he would have not created free will just to have some of his creations curse his name while simultaneously putting the obedient creations at risk for harm. Thus, this act would too contradict his assumed perfection.

Death by excess is no way to win an argument. If you can't win a debate in a few paragraphs, you can't win.
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Old 12 Apr 2012, 10:47 PM EDT   #38
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You know...


I hate these sort of discussion but I will just add this in.

So many people say "if there is a God why does he allow innocent to die" This question is very hard to answer because we cannot help but put our human bias into the mix.

I just compare it slightly to a military general, sometimes you have to make hard choices, unpopular choices, but necessary choices none the less.


I will use the book of job, just like in the wild, a wolf Alpha male may be challenged time to time by another, much younger wolf for the right to be the new pack leader. In the same way Satan challenges God, puts him on the spot, like a intergalactic beyond the realms of human existence bet.



Satin was basically saying no one would follow you if their lives were bad, no one would turn to you for guidance and healing in a true horrifying situation, you're nothing but a fake, and you're weak. In the bible Satin has GREAT influence on God's creation, Satin influences 3/4ths of the angels to rebel against their creator.


That is how I view it, but of course I am viewing it with my own eyes, I would say it is much more complex, the same way that you cannot imagine a color that doesn't exist, doesn't mean there isn't one.
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Old 13 Apr 2012, 2:13 AM EDT   #39
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You know...


I hate these sort of discussion but I will just add this in.

So many people say "if there is a God why does he allow innocent to die" This question is very hard to answer because we cannot help but put our human bias into the mix.

I just compare it slightly to a military general, sometimes you have to make hard choices, unpopular choices, but necessary choices none the less.


I will use the book of job, just like in the wild, a wolf Alpha male may be challenged time to time by another, much younger wolf for the right to be the new pack leader. In the same way Satan challenges God, puts him on the spot, like a intergalactic beyond the realms of human existence bet.



Satin was basically saying no one would follow you if their lives were bad, no one would turn to you for guidance and healing in a true horrifying situation, you're nothing but a fake, and you're weak. In the bible Satin has GREAT influence on God's creation, Satin influences 3/4ths of the angels to rebel against their creator.


That is how I view it, but of course I am viewing it with my own eyes, I would say it is much more complex, the same way that you cannot imagine a color that doesn't exist, doesn't mean there isn't one.
Sorry, that was more than two paragraphs; you lose.
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Old 13 Apr 2012, 3:41 AM EDT   #40
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Is there a reason why he said that?
Because its a silly story?

Its amusing that the bible lineage (Luke 3:23-38) has now been discounted by a Cardinal, all due to the absurdness of a story that was once taught as fact.
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Old 13 Apr 2012, 10:48 AM EDT   #41
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We're not really arguing, considering arguing implies someone can win; this is about theology where no one wins. We are merely exchanging beliefs.
Oh really? then lets keep "discussing" one point at a time.

Please tell me what the **** is a God who doesnt act. And how did this God create everything if he didnt act?
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Old 13 Apr 2012, 11:07 AM EDT   #42
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Oh really? then lets keep "discussing" one point at a time.

Please tell me what the **** is a God who doesnt act. And how did this God create everything if he didnt act?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
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Old 13 Apr 2012, 11:12 AM EDT   #43
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It says right there on the link you posted that he rarely, if ever, intervenes in human affairs. This doesnt mean he cant or that he hasn't.

To me it is stupid to think that a god who created everything made it just to look at it from time to time for no reason whatsoever.

A god who thinks of us as pure entertainment is much worse than any god Ive heard of to this date.
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Old 13 Apr 2012, 11:28 AM EDT   #44
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HOLD THE PHONE so Hick, are you telling me that you believe in a god who practices non-interventionism? LMFAO

Oh. MY. God. I cant believe you are basing your spiritual beliefs on a foreign policy theory. lmao You would...
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Old 13 Apr 2012, 11:28 AM EDT   #45
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It says right there on the link you posted that he rarely, if ever, intervenes in human affairs. This doesnt mean he cant or that he hasn't.

To me it is stupid to think that a god who created everything made it just to look at it from time to time for no reason whatsoever.

A god who thinks of us as pure entertainment is much worse than any god Ive heard of to this date.
If an omnipotent being exists then who are we to question its motivations? Humans would not have the capacity to comprehend such an entity.

I'm not really arguing in favor of Deism, I'm just showing you a conception of an inactive God.
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